Yes TJ something can be done if you start to understand.

In a previous post TJ had this to say:

Rani-There is a thing called taking stuff to extremes, this is what your doing by looking for specific answers where you cannot ever hope to find them. "IF" you could monitor every person in America during every second of their life, you could possibly prevent stuff like this, but being as you can't, then the best you can hope for is to pick up the pieces as fast as possible. Is it possible that this is caused by some mental issues? Probably, I would say you need to be partly twisted if your wanting to kill people including yourself, but the question is not if there was some problem, the question is could it have been detected? He was a "A" student and his parents did not note any major problems to make them think he was ill until this incident came up. Most people with mental illnesses learn to wear a false mask to the public, to hide their issues.

This post is in reply to that statement since the reply is rather lengthy and required some actual researching on my part.

It is true, you can't monitor every person in America every moment of their lives. But...

Through the investigations of past school shootings some repeating factors have been analyzed in the attempt to understand school shooting rampages.

There is no accurate or useful "profile" of students who engaged in targeted school violence. Meaning a shooter can be male or female of any age, race, etc.

Incidents of targeted violence at school rarely were sudden, impulsive acts.

Prior to most incidents, other people knew about the attacker's idea and/or plan to attack.

Most attackers did not threaten their targets directly prior to advancing the attack.

Most attackers engaged in some behavior prior to the incident that caused others concern or indicated a need for help.

Most attackers had difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures. Moreover, many had considered or attempted suicide.

Many attackers felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack.

Most attackers had access to and had used weapons prior to the attack.

Examples:

In 1966, Charles Whitman discussed his depression with the University's doctor, Jan Cochrun, who prescribed Valium and recommended he visit campus psychiatrist Maurice Dean Heatly. On March 29, 1966, Whitman met with Heatly and spent an hour explaining his frustration with his parents' separation and his increasing strains at work and school. During the interview, he made a remark about feeling the urge to "start shooting people with a deer rifle" from the University tower.

July 12, 1976 Edward Charles Allaway, a custodian, shot nine people in the basement and first floor of the library. Seven of the nine people shot died, and the other two were injured. Five different mental health professionals diagnosed him with paranoid schizophrenia. He presented a history of mental illness.

Then we would have Jamie Wilson. September 26, 1988, Wilson had a troubled past, almost from the start. Ridiculed for being fat and dressing funny, his own father threatened to kill him. He became aggressive, violent, and was in and out of psychiatric centers starting at age 14. He would ultimately be diagnosed with schizophrenia.

On December 14, 1992, Wayne Lo became the next person to open fire at school. Lo's psychiatrists testified he was suffering from schizophrenia while the prosecution expert psychiatrist witnesses merely attributed Lo's actions to his narcissistic personality disorder. And he was clearly racist.

Evan Ramsey suffered from depression from as young as 10 and was contemplating suicide five years before the shootings. Reports say over 20 people knew of Ramsey's plan to shoot up the school.

Seung-Hui Cho. He was diagnosed with a severe form of an anxiety disorder known as selective mutism in middle school, as well as depression. During Cho's last two years at Virginia Tech, several instances of his aberrant behavior, as well as plays and other writings he submitted containing references to violence, caused concerns among teachers and classmates. The investigative panel's final report devoted more than 30 pages to detailing Cho's mental health history. The report criticized Virginia Tech educators, administrators and mental health staff in failing to "connect the dots" from numerous incidents that were warning signs of Cho's mental instability and that they had failed to notice his deteriorating condition and help him.

I am sure there will be more to come out about the recent incident invovling the boy we had been discussing. I have no qualms in believing eventually we will learn this boy to exhibited some of the same pattern traits as other shcool shooters.

It is already coming out that he He hated people different from him -- the rich boys with good-looking girlfriends. And I also found evidence that his parents parents sought help from mental health experts after he slammed his head into a wall 3 days before he was arrested.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=561049&in_page_id=1811

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-plot22apr22,1,7919858.story?track=rss

The question is could it have been detected? And the answer is yes, if people would just stop and pay attention and take things seriously. This boy's parents had started to notice something wasn't right, and didn't ignore it, as a result, who knows how many lives was saved.

Replies

4/25/2008 10:34:07 AM From: BCAR For every legitimate "detection" there will be 999,999 false alarms. PC police and behavioral gurus run amok.


4/25/2008 10:34:26 AM From: BCAR Just call in Dr. Phil.


4/25/2008 1:55:18 PM From: beags BCAR is right.. you can't "just stop and pay attention" every time a kid has a bad day at school. Not investigating every little "I hate school!" claim isn't the same as ignoring a kid's mental issues. Catering to the attention-hungry ass-holes who want to shoot up their schools is probably a big part of the problem. If they quit showing it on TV, having around the clock video and coverage and interviews, and quit analyzing it to death, then there will be no 15 minutes of fame for these kids who think that they're the only people in the world with problems.


4/25/2008 2:05:00 PM From: BCAR Beags nailed it, attention is what they want, this whole idea just plays to it more.


4/25/2008 3:06:45 PM From: emkay64 Oh Mylanta!


4/25/2008 3:46:29 PM From: RaE emkay... are you my doctor???


4/25/2008 3:46:42 PM From: RaE cause... my doctor said mylanta.


4/25/2008 8:03:39 PM From: Rani Perhaps if some serious attention was given when the attention-hungry ass-hole makes his or her first claim "I hate school" it wouldn't end up with a shooting rampage. Why not stop and pay attention every time a kid has a bad day at school? Why not help a kid difficulty coping with personal failures cope, or being bullied, or any other little gripe a kid can have? Why not deal with the issue of a kid being a attention-hungry asshole before dozen of people die?


4/25/2008 8:12:46 PM From: Rani Better 999,999 false alarmsbe proven to be false alarms than 1 legitimate "detection" being ignored out of fear it might be a false alarm.


4/25/2008 8:21:02 PM From: timesjoke You don't want to hear this but you cannot solve this problem by trying to connect the dots because the dots are all over the place. Hindsight is 20/20, you can look backward abd see warning signs sure, but living in the real world requires us to look foward, and one guy complaining about depression is just one among billions without any real reason to dostinguish him from anyone else. Antidepressants are the single most polular drug next to pain killers in America. Everyone is mental in one way or another it seems so do we lock everyone up in the attempt top stop this kind of thing?**********No, you cannot do something because there is nothing to understand or notice while life is happening in real time.


4/26/2008 2:17:45 PM From: mercury "Antidepressants are the single most popular drug next to pain killers in America." << Doesn't that fact alone imply that something is going majorly wrong and possibly bears investigation? Knowledge is power... at least that's what school house rock taught me ;o)


4/26/2008 2:22:20 PM From: mercury sorry bares investigating (?) is that right? lol


4/26/2008 9:16:03 PM From: Rani one guy complaining about depression is just one among billions, sure, but that too is different from making a statement to your psychiatrist about feeling the urge to "start shooting people with a deer rifle" from the University tower. False alarm or not, statements like that should be taken seriously. Oh but I guess the psychiatrist thought he was joking! I guess the doc was wrong!


4/26/2008 9:17:01 PM From: timesjoke Investigate what? Why people are depressed? That answer is right in front of us but we will refuse to see/admit it. As we get further and further away from faith, we get further and further into immoral behavoirs that are tearing us apart at the seams. Our modern society of "me, me, me" is blowing up in our faces. The kids are just displaying the result of parents who only care of themselves. Single, never married women having children is the fastest growing group in America. Raising children with two parents in the home is a damn difficult job, doing it (well) alone is very close to impossible.


4/26/2008 9:55:28 PM From: eddo and here I thought "knowing was half the battle"...


4/27/2008 8:00:36 AM From: Rani Investigate what? Use your children for an example, who, besides you and those close to your children knows them best. Suddenly you notice your child doing and saying things that are out of character for your child. For example, your A student is suddenly failing, your child, who loved school and before couldn't wait to get there, suddenly doesn't want anything to do with school. Wouldn't you naturally try to find out why that is happening? And the answer could be anything from, isn't doing homework, to being bullied. You, taking the time to find out would determine the course of action you would take to resolve the problem. That is all I am saying, if more people would take time to understand why something is happening rather than punishment alone before it gets to a crisis point, perhaps the crisis can be avoided.


4/27/2008 8:04:00 AM From: BCAR Lets have another constitutional amendment Rani. Let's forget education and spend several hours a day getting into the kid's head right? Better yet let's install a micro chip in eveyone's head. Maybe we can stop bad thoughts about gays while we're at it.


4/27/2008 8:10:50 AM From: Rani BCAR! What a wonderful IDEA! You get the petition going okay!


4/27/2008 8:13:31 AM From: Rani Half-assed attempts at dealing with a problem doesn't do shit.


4/27/2008 8:26:49 AM From: Rani If you are the parent of a child who has a mental illness and you see evidence the illness is deteriorating, do you do nothing about it? These are things that are happening throughout the history of school shootings. People are ignoring very serious deteriorating behaviors and statements.


4/27/2008 8:28:03 AM From: Rani If you are the teacher of a child who has a mental illness and you see evidence of that illness deteriorating, do you do nothing about it?


4/27/2008 8:38:15 AM From: Rani In Seung-Hui Cho's case, that is exactly what happened and 32 people lost their lives because of it.


4/27/2008 10:01:01 AM From: Rani In the case of Cho, for Two years, people watched his behavior become more and more aggressive and violent, he stalked women at the campus. His last stalking victim would be the first to die. For two years, he defied a court order to seek mental health treatment and nothing was done about it. For two years, people knew this man was sliding down a violent and dangerous slope, For two years this man was diagnosed as being a danger to himself and others. For two years this was ignored. For two years Cho was more than one guy complaining about depression among billions. I am not talking about the normal kid having a bad day at school.


4/27/2008 10:18:06 AM From: Rani What is different in the Cho case and the Schallenberger case? How come Schallenberger's plans to blow up his school didn't happen? The difference is when Schallenberger starting showing behavior out of normal character for him, and when the suggestion that Schallenberger was a danger to himself and others became apparant, it wasn't ignored.


4/27/2008 10:50:54 AM From: mercury I think all Rani is pointing out is something you are quite fond of yourself, B- using the common sense god gave us all. Knowing your child and being involved enough to know when something is wrong without having to implant a chip. Having a relationship that allows communication and the balls to take action to help your child resolve those issues that come up before they become a crisis filled with legal bills and battles. you know: being a Parent. All I got from her comments is a basic wake the frack up and see what's going on within your own home and community. I didn't get "thought police" out of it at all.


4/27/2008 11:07:46 AM From: Rani That is exactly what I am saying Merc. Thankyou.


4/27/2008 4:24:02 PM From: hugo Yes, parents should be involved. Yes, at some point teachers should be involved. There is a line though between normal adolescent behavior (such as hanging a noose from a tree or saying "I hate school") and behavior that needs attention.


4/27/2008 5:17:15 PM From: BCAR Our public school systems can't seem to educate kids let alone be thought police. Discipline is a parents realm and yes schools can report bad or disturbing behavior. But the fact is in your Virginia tech case you cited; that the old "diversity/ everyone is O.K., Oh let's not call someone crazy" mindset is as much at fault as anything. Some people are just bad machines and all the good parenting in the world isn't going to change that. Problem is we seem to be cranking out more and more of them these days, I blame the Clintons.


4/27/2008 6:42:38 PM From: Rani Of course there is a line between normal adolescent behavior and behavior that needs attention. BCAR you are spot on when you say that the old "diversity/ everyone is O.K., Oh let's not call someone crazy" mindset is as much at fault as anything. But saying nothing can be done about it is in error. In every case I cited, there was an opening to prevent that specific tragedy from happening and that opening was ignored.


4/27/2008 6:52:44 PM From: Rani My whole point Hugo is there are warning signs that let people know when a child has crossed the line between normal adolescent behavior and needing immediate help. I don't know about you, but I personally think when a child has moved from simply stating I hate school or moves beyond hanging a noose in a tree into the realm of aggressive, violent behavior; it is a pretty safe bet, that kid needs help.


4/27/2008 6:56:25 PM From: Rani and my personal opinion that someone hanging a noose in a tree isn't a cool thing to do has nothing to do with this. Though, personally I would keep my eye on that little prick who hangs nooses in trees, he or she could end up the victim of a shooting rampage.


4/27/2008 7:16:39 PM From: Rani Since you are determined to bring the whole noose in a tree thing into this conversation, let's run with it, It is no secret that I find that action deplorable, so deplorable that if I could, I would have it completely labeled as a hate crime and not be protected by the first amendment, the majority of you all disagree with me on that issue and love to tease me about it, but you all know that is the normal for me, that I feel that strongly opposed to people being allowed to freely hang nooses in a tree. Then one day, I go outside myself and hang a noose in a tree. Think that would be something that should and would grab your attention? Wouldn't you be like, no Rani, hates that, she wouldn't do that, what is going on? How many of you would whisper and gossip about it behind my back and how many of you would have the courage to confront me about it? Just curious.


4/27/2008 10:25:03 PM From: timesjoke The stuff you say sounds good in the limited scope you offer but the reality is these vents do not have a stead or common appearance. This case had a kid still making straight A's in his classes. Many other cases have everythign as fine till one day, it is not fine. Add to that popularity of having children without husbands/fathers and we see that kids do not have parents who put them first. Again, your looking backwards, hindsight is always 20/20 but real life does not sit still long enough to put everyone under a microscope every second of the day to see if their messed up. Even the Cho case your so proud about means nothing when compared tot he many thousands of other 'similar' cases that did not end with a school shooting. People like Cho end up in the over crowded system every day, many thousands of them every day in fact. What happened was horrible, but not really avoidable unless your going to start trouncing all over the constitution.


4/28/2008 5:15:23 AM From: Rani Did you miss the part that school shooting are rarely sudden, impulsive acts. Which means things lead progressively up to the crisis point where a kid goes out and attacks his or her school. It isn't a matter of one day everything is fine and then it isn't, for it to be that way, sure possible, could happen, but RARE. I agree, life does move fast and you can't put everyone under a microscope every day but every parents can and should know their children, teachers can and should know their students, know them well enough that they can spot something out of character for that child. Out of character even for a child that is disruptive and so on. NO microscope needed, don't you get that. You seem to be under the impression because this is a straight A student and his grade didn't slip that he didn't show behavior changes that his parents picked up on. I am sure in the beginning his parents did think much of his behavior was due to normal teenage rebellion but his behavior changed enough to warrant their attention and they gave it. His behavior changed enough that they was opening his mail in order to find out some answers. And because they didn't blow off even the little changes in their son, they was able to stop something terrible and now hopefully the boy will get the help he needs and not end up in a over crowded system that fails him which happens way to often.


4/28/2008 5:32:12 AM From: Rani Hindsight is always 20/20 and through hindsight, which sometimes you gotta look back to be able to go forward, there is one factor that has a huge impact on a shooter being successful. And that one factor is people who know their is a serious problem going on with that person ignores their is a serious problem happening. How big of a fracking rock has to fall on peoples head, when a person shares with his doctor he feels the urge to "start shooting people with a deer rifle" that should be a pretty clear indication, this person needs big help. When a student with a long history of mental illness attends your school, that is a pretty good indication, that student needs to be closely monitored. When a court orders a person to under go mental health treatment, it would be reasonable to expect the court to follow up and make sure that person is doing so. There are some things that are so big you don't need a microscope, it is in your face. Hindsight shows a history of people knowing without a shout of a doubt there are serious issues happening with this person, serious, not mundane, serious and doing nothing about it.


4/28/2008 5:38:51 AM From: Rani One clear indication someone needs help is they change from a reasonable clear headed person suddenly acting irrationally, aggressive, and violent. A clear indication someone needs help is that even though they have a tendency to act irrational, agressive and even violent, the behavior is getting worse. Do you need a microscope for that?


4/28/2008 5:46:27 AM From: Feckless Wench Just a quick reply to save rani from the 'No spamming posts' rule......LOL!


4/28/2008 6:22:20 AM From: BCAR This whole affair has caused me to hang a noose from the light over my desk.


4/28/2008 6:24:47 AM From: mercury I thought I found a noose in a tree at the park the other day... turned out it wasn't a noose and I'm not sure what it is. I took a picture for you anyway ;o)


4/28/2008 11:34:22 AM From: Rani Bratty party poopers, I was having such a good time. lol


4/28/2008 11:51:36 AM From: eddo I hung a sign in a tree that said "esoon", but I have been known to be lesdyxic.


4/28/2008 1:02:39 PM From: mercury and here I thought the virginity thing was a choice ;o)


4/28/2008 3:39:56 PM From: timesjoke Rani-Your still missing the point, when looking backwards it is easy to spot the clear cycle your talking about, but looking foward it is not most of the time. Can you say all people who act in a bad way like mass killings all are the same? They all give the same symptoms? You want to cherry pick a couple stories and claim all the worlds problems can be cured based on just these two examples, well I'm sorry but that is not the real world. The real world has most of the parents on anti-depressants, how can they diagnose their kid when their loony ons on meds themselves? This story had the same thing as we see in most of these kid cases though, the father was not in the picture for this kids life. If you ask me there needs to be a new priority in the raising of kids to not remove fathers from their children's lives so easily.


4/29/2008 5:37:10 AM From: Rani TJ, I am not the one who came up with the repeating factors from a handful of cherry picked examples, the experts that be came up with those repeating factors. And I do understand that everyday people cannot possibly "catch" every case. But when there is evidence in plain sight, evidence so compelling that any reasonable person could deduce something really bad is about to happen, there is really no excuse for ignoring it.


4/29/2008 5:48:36 AM From: BCAR TJ might I suggest walking out the front door and talking reason to a tree or lampost or something. I find it allows me to vent my frustration with Rani without the the resulting angst and multiple responses.


4/29/2008 5:57:48 AM From: Rani :P~~


4/29/2008 2:35:24 PM From: timesjoke Well BCAR, I am starting to see your point, remember, I am still very new here and learning how people are. Rani, if it is so easy, fine, go around America pointing out those bad apples you claim are waving flags before they do wrong and feel happy that your doing great work for society. The rest of us will be truly impressed by your ability to do what billions upon billions of people before you could never do............Have a nice day :)


4/29/2008 5:17:18 PM From: Rani Since I want to keep the yes you can, no you can't arguement in its proper place. I'd like to know TJ how you can justify saying the wife of the man who held his daughter prisoner could possibly go through life not knowing he was doing that and then come in here and say to me, I am being unreasonable to think that people can pick up on huge, in your face, red flags that indicate a person is highly prone to commit a violent act, such as a school shooting.


4/29/2008 5:27:49 PM From: Rani Explain to me how a psychiatrist cannot grasp the concept, " I have the urge to start shooting people with a deer rifle" as being something to take seriously. Yet in the very first case, that happened, and the psychiatrist let that man walk right out of his office, never to return. Explain to me, how it is that college officials cannot understand someone is heading towards a violent episode when they received at least 3, perhaps more, complaints from women on campus they are being stalked by that man? But yet a woman cannot possibly be clueless that her husband is so evil that he kidnapped his own daughter and held her prisoner for 24 years. I frankly don't believe the wife is clueless anymore than I believe that psychiatrist was clueless that his patient was in fact a true danger to himself and others, or that VT was clueless that Cho was in fact a danger to himself and others. Just like the wife, they chose to ignore the evidence presented them.


4/29/2008 6:21:54 PM From: BCAR Rani if only you had been in charge of the mind police. (sorry 12 words to express my idea, rattling on I guess)


4/29/2008 9:12:48 PM From: eddo I don't read past the 8th word anymore...


4/29/2008 9:31:01 PM From: Rani Seriously, how is it mind police?


4/29/2008 9:32:36 PM From: Rani "I have the urge to shoot people" is misunderstood, HOW?


4/30/2008 5:38:28 AM From: BCAR Start a list of who doesn't have the urge to shoot people. That will be the shortest reply you've ever done.


4/30/2008 6:06:32 AM From: mercury Put me at the top. I only get the urge to bite ;o)


4/30/2008 4:21:58 PM From: timesjoke Rani - If you take the time to read and comprehend my reply about the wife, you will answer your own question, I will not waste time trying to explain something so simple to see...........Your examples are too narow and again, completely driven by hindsight. How amny people who have voiced some kind of claim to violence to shtinks have actually followed through with it? Almost none. Anti-depressants are the most common drug prescribed in America but we rarely hear of these kinds of tragis events so clearly most people do not do what their talking about doing, they are just reaching out for attention/help.


5/2/2008 1:53:02 AM From: hugo I saw a little kid pulling on a cat's tail today. i believe Ted Bundy did the same thing as a child. I took preemptive action and kidnapped and sold the kid to a Chinese textile company.


5/2/2008 1:54:01 PM From: RaE You see what i did there... It was like the comercial... "My doctor said Mylanta..." I thought it was funny too.


5/2/2008 4:05:09 PM From: emkay64 Hi RaE! Wanna play doctor? You can call me June....or whatever you can remember :P


5/16/2008 8:17:27 AM From: Power I see some things never change.